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teddysftw

Explain me the mmr system please

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We (around 1950team last week) beat a 2250 team and get 15 points, they lose 8 points

 

????????

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Wrdlbrmpft said:

There is a post about it and changelog on discord. Read it.

Can you enlighten us with some more details? A Link to the post? A quote of the changelog? Couldn't find anything, that would help on this case.

Historically, hidden and current MMR and gaining/losing points are a cluster fuck.
If (!) teddysftw's information on the ratings are correct, then ELO-wise there are two ways of distributing the points: If your team wins, you gain 27 Points, your opponent loses 27; if your team loses, you lose 4 points, the other team gains 4 points.
Practically gaining 15 points means ELO-wise, that your opponent was around 20 Ratingpoints lower than your team. That your opponent lost 8 points means, they were around 300 (!) rating points below your (or their) 2250 rating. So obviously, there is a contrast between theory and practice. Because in practice, there is (your current) hidden MMR, that will influence that distribution. (Your current) Hidden MMR is by definition invisible to any player and a black box. That's why nobody can tell you anything concrete (obviusly, I'll try to do so, but it can be wrong).

In theory: If your win-lose-statistics on your actual rating are around 50/50 (you win some, you loose some, but you don't have a win streak [anymore]), then your hidden MMR  is equal to your actual rating. That means, the system wants your there, because you belong there. If you having a win streak from that point on, your hidden MMR will slowly progress to a new one (and vice versa).
Secondly, the (difference in each) personal ratings of any player in a given team can influence all that (see http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/us/6440951169.htm). If you rotate players regurlarly, that are on fairly equal skill and rating level, the influence isn't that high. If you rotate low with high ratings, the influence is higher.

So some possible answer to your question could be:
(1) Your opponent was mixing up players, someone (or "sometwo") had have - compared to their actual rating und your rating - a (much) lower rating. In that case, there average personal rating was far lower than there team rating; rating-wise, your opponent wasn't a "real current" 2250 team, it was a "temporary" ~1920 team (see http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/en/5963178394.htm regarding the "gaussian distrbution filter"; this is consistent with the above information). [Edit 1+2: Maybe, they wanted to push someone up to the rating requirement for the weapons. The consequences in the visible rating wasn't that high [-8], but the hidden MMR of the "real current" 2250 could have drop drastically [-27].]
(2) On Netherwing, they added some ingredients to the magic potion.

For the ELO-numbers i pulled, i used the formula in https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Arena_PvP_system

 

Edited by HashtagBadeente
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That might be the case. However I'd like a blue post on this because currently (to me or anyone I've spoken with) the arena system just does not make any sense. It's almost impossible to lose rating, because same(or +-) rated teams are getting maybe double the points per win (compared to the points they are losing for a loss). What this means is that basically with a 50-50 win ratio, your rating will be going up and up and up ... which is just .... dumb?

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What HashtagBadeente wrote is pretty spot on. I didn't add anything extra to the system that's already there by default on TC and such. The MMR used is the average personal MMR of group members. Comparing team ratings won't tell you anything since gains/losses are based purely on MMR and its value is not displayed anywhere in TBC client.

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Well but comparing team ratings should tell you something, because it's what the titles are based on ... so if you are on 2300 team rating and you are losing 3 points to a 2100 rated team then this "system" is just not working

If you want to award titles based on mmr then sure, keep the system, but I am telling you it's not working right now. Ask anyone above 2100 and they will tell you that the system is just extremely weird and people are just not losing rating the way they should.

With Schaka's help it should be pretty easy to emulate nextgen's system (where the usage of mmr did not completely fuck the entire system). You simply can't be losing between 3 and 8 points if you are 2300 rated.

If the system is completely ignoring team rating and goes solely based on mmr then I can just leave my team, spam losses until my mmr is at 1500, join back my old team and keep getting +15 from 1500 rated players, but in a 2300 rated team.  It's hard to explain, but it's just not working correctly right now.

Edited by teddysftw

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There are two things, we should differentiate: Functioning of the TBC-Arena-System vs. abusing the system. After that, we can talk about "fixing" the problems.

Point 1: In the TBC Arena-System, you have to be in a team, to get access to the arena content in general (queuing up for arena) and for specific rewards (Arenapoints and rating for gear and titles). As far as i know and understand it, in TBC you/we as players and even the developers of such projects are restricted to that "Team-System" due "technic"/gamecode (you have to revamp some part of the arena system, at least the pvp menu with teams).
So in a simple way: TBC Arena-System doesn't work without teams. You have to find a solution, that includes the team-mechanic.
Rating-wise, in the backround there is the hidden personal MMR, but this has only influence on your queue-MMR (average personal rating of all players of a team queuing), not on your point-distribution in the team regarding a win/lose (see abvoe), because the Arean-System is based on teams/team-rating (for Arenapoints and Ratingrewards), not a personal rating.

Point 2: In a competition, it's normal, that we are seeking advantages. This can lead to abusing and breaking a system, especially if it is possible and if there is no punishment. Historically, arena always was a shitfest of abusing the system. Because of the clusterfuck arena[-rating] is, Blizzard had had problems to identifiy the more tricky abuse-mechanics. As a gamer designer, you are interested in minimizing the abuse potential (because fun). And you need to identify, what and how something is abused, otherwise you can't fix the problem properly.
There a two main interests in the arena system right now, that can and will be abused: getting rating for the weapon (short term) and title-cutoffs (long term).
With the introdcution of rated-gear in Season 3 and 4, a typical abuse with the team-system is/was: high rated player had one high rated/gladi team (in 2s, 3s or even 5s) and join other fresh 1500 team to push them to a certain rating, crushing "lower" teams on their way. Playing aroung 1750 (weapong rating) against player with 2k-shoulder (who helped pushing to the weapong rating) back then was "normal" (=frustrating). Obviously, this happens on Netherwing too (very high Teamrating-Teams playing on a rating around weapon level rating).
Without the "team"-restriction by the Arena-System, it would be an easy way to minimize this abuse, because then you would gain points individually and so pushing players/teams would be more risky.

In that case [minimizing the abusive of a team fixated system], there are some solutions, for example:
- Blizzards participation-percentages (weekly for Arenapoints, rating-wise for gear and season rewards)
- rating decay like on Netherwing

Regarding the rating-decay, it can both motivate and demotivate players with higher ratings to keep playing every week (not sitting on rating vs. pushing rating). It also could scale down the rating-pyramide to a range of ~1200-2100 instead of ~1200-2500+ (player just get to weapong rating and from that point, they just play for the Arenapoints every week without focussing on rating that much). On the other hand, right now (short term), more players are (more) interested in pushing rating for the weapons. So there could be a overcompensation resulting in frequent abuse of the team-mechanic-system (as mentioned above). A better solutions could have been to "time-gate" and not to "rating-gate" weapons (you have to gather a minimum on Arenapoints over some weeks, before you are able to buy a weapon; this motivates player to play weekly and because it is timegated, there is very little to abuse). But i don't know, if this can technically be done (see point 1 and i don't exactly know, when this timegated system was introduced in retail WoW).

[TL;DR] So a better solution for Netherwing can be: reduce the weapon rating every month by 50 rating-points to decompensate the abuse potential (for example: in September (!) or after 6 (!) months the rating-requirement would be still 1650, when at the same time the pve-guild-content/progress will advanced further).

Point 3: How "big" is the pvp/arena community right now [and when are peak times?] and in 3 or 6 months?

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1:29:40 +12 -6 team A wins
1:34:01 +12 -7 team B wins

 

Imagine each team winning 10 games and losing 10 games. The system has generated 130 points (70 points for one and 60 points for the other team) and even though both teams are still the same skill level, their rating has increased significantly. See the problem now? The problem is that there's too much rating in the system. I understand this change (because in the normal system, the only thing generating rating are new teams), but what I am saying is that it's too drastic.

The simple solution is to make teams lose more rating ... nobody needs rating decay, just lose more points every time you lose. Losing 6 points at 2300 rating is just ridiculous. Make it +12 -11 or +12 -10 ... there will still be rating generated by the system, but it won't be such a clusterfuck as it is right now.

Or even better ... reward the better team by making them win more points. Instead of +12 -7 make it +14 -12. That way you are giving rating to the winner as a reward and not taking less rating from the loser. If you are constantly beating other teams you should have higher rating than them even if you play less games. In this system people who play more games get more rating even if their win ratio is significantly lower ... which is not how it's supposed  to work. Reward the winner, not the loser!

Edited by teddysftw

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lol arena doesnt work like that, simply put if both teams have higher MMR than their team rating then there will be a net gain of points until both teams have reached their MMR. if netherwing is using the cmangos arena handler then the values are correct

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